A Piece of A Big Machine

Michael Jon Clark the Narrator served in the US Army from 1971 to 1974. This interview covers his motivations for joining, his experiences, and the different units he belonged to. This interview was conducted at several times thru ought the day of November 4th 2007.

Diagnosed with Multiple Myeloma a blood born cancer the Narrator is receiving treatment in Little Rock Arkansas where he lives away from his home in Michigan. The Interview takes place in the Narrators Apartment. He is setting in the dining area at the table with the Kitchen behind him. His Wife is lying on the couch to his right and he occasionally looks her way. The Narrator is a Narcoleptic and is sucking candy and drinking coffee because he is trying to stay awake. The Narrator is unable to take his Narcolepsy medication because of his Cancer treatment and may be feeling the effects of the drugs he has taken earlier in the day.

When I describe the Narrator as gesturing I am referring to him using his arms or hands. I use expression to describe the Narrators facial communications. In deciphering the Narrators gestures and expressions I am including a lot of subjectivity to the transcript. Although some of signals are simple to relate on paper (like nods and smiles) others are more difficult to determine exactly what the Narrator is trying to communicate. Some of the signals I placed in the transcript because they felt right while others were ignorable.

The transcript is a basic verbatim style with no editing. It is punctuated in places but the nature of human speech doesn’t lend itself well to the rules of writing. The punctuation used is for ease of reading only.

S: This is interviewer Scott Merrow, On Tape 1A, Interviewing Michael Jon Clark on November 4th 2007.
We are in, Little Rock Arkansas.
S: Where were you born Michael?
M: Lansing Michigan.
S: Lansing Michigan, What – What Year?
M: 1952.
S: 1952 and what’s your Fathers name?
M: Carl N. Clark.
S: And your Mothers Name?
M: [Pause] Virginia –I think it was B. Haybarker.
S: And you have how many siblings and what are their names?
M: [Narrator Sips coffee] Uh—
S: I guess you don’t need {to, uh huh}
M: {Three} sisters—One’s name is um Carlene Torres, I am assuming you want— maiden names.
S: No, That’s fine we know they’re Clark’s right?
M: Right, Carlene Torres, Mary Russel, and Pam— [Narrator Shrugs]1 Can’t think of her last name now she just got married—Pam gosh dang it.
S: That’s ok.
M: And I have two brothers, one’s Nathan Clark, and the other one is Thomas Clark.
S: And what did your father—do for a living?
M: He worked for uh, Bell Telephone Company.
S: Bell Telephone.
M: And he was a—Engineer/Right Away Purchase Age-Agent.
S: Right Away Purchase Agent?
M: Yeah.
S: Ok, and How about your Mother, What did she do?
M: She was a home—
S: She was a Stay-at-home-Mom.
M: Home Keeper part time, she worked part-time at the school when I was younger.
S: And where did you go to school at?
M: [Narrator Sips coffee] What School?
S: Um-huh.
M: Holt High School. [Narrator smiles]
S: Holt High School, Ok.
M: Holt Elementary School.
S: And that’s in Michigan?
M: Yeah.
S: And, how about for college, did you go to college?
M: Yep.
S: Where did you go to school?
M: Lansing Community College in Lansing Michigan.
S: Did you receive a degree?
M: Yeeaah, [narrator smiles] I got an associates degree there.
S: ‘K.
M: And then I transferred to State and got my Bachelors Degree in Batch—in Teaching and then I also have a Masters degree at Michigan State University.
S: Ok, so you said, when you said that you transferred to State that’s Michig—
M: From Michigan State University.
S: Ok.
M: In East Lansing Michigan.
S: Ok, Alright now do you have any other education, did we cover all of your education?
M: [Narrator pauses] other then work shop stuff
S: Ok—Alright
M: Or military stuff I went to school I guess
S: Are you married?
M: Yes. [Narrator looks at wife]
S: When were you married and who is your wife?
M: My Wife is Linda May Clark and we were married in January 10th 1984.2
S: Alright and do you have any—children?
M: Yep, Do I need to include you?
S: [Interviewer chuckles] Go ahead
M: Uh, I- I have a son from my first marriage Scott Clark or Scott Merk- Merrow, theh I have we have Lin-Linda and I have a D-Daughter, Megan—Hammas,[Narrator expresses frustration] and uh I have a Step-Daughter Sara Nauta.
S: Alright, Alright So I would Like to talk to you about your—motivations for joining the Army. When did you Join the Army?
M: [Narrator pauses] I Think I sign—I signed up in I think of June 1971.
S: Ok, and does that correlate with your graduation from High School?
M: Yeah.
S: When did you graduate from High school?
M: June.
S: June, Ok [Narrator and Interviewer laugh]
M: {1971.}
S: {1971,} alright and so what motivated you?
M: Probably mostly the GI Bill.
S: GI Bill.
M: At that time yeah.
S: What kind of opportunities did the GI Bill uh give you at that time?
M: Well I knew I wanted to go to college so—I knew I knew I couldn’t afford it and my parents couldn’t afford it so—I knew I could get a GI Bill would help pay most of my college.
S: Ok—So, When you joined the service—you—went into a unit and you don’t remember that unit is that correct you don’t remember the name of that unit?
M: Well I mean you went to basic training first.
S: You had to go to basic training first ok.
M: But I was also like in a delayed entry program.
S: Ok.
M: Cause I d-didn’t, I signed up in June I d-didn’t leave until September—so when I think signed up it was for, I am I getting to detailed—when I signed up it was called, it was called like a guarantee Buddy Basic.
S: Ok.
M: Cause I had a friend of mine a friend of mine Tom Feasal, th-that I went to school with—that also graduated in ’71, we both join together at the same time so we had at least guaranteed buddy going to basic training together and I had a guarantee to go to Airborne—Jump School.
S: So when you—when you joined the service sometimes you join the service and you pick a job had you picked a job?
M: No. [Narrator smiles]
S: But you did want to go into the Airborne?
M: No, in fact I was pretty naive [Narrator expresses disappointment] about that actually, cause when you first go in to basic training they ask you what you want to do, didn’t have a clue [Narrator smiles] didn’t have what as far as a job, job an Airborne is just field but there’s things a lot of things you can do in the Airborne so, I wound up saying Artillery because my Dad was in Artillery. [Narrator smiles and shrugs, hands expressing uncertainty]
S: So you were trained for the Artillery then?
M: Right.
S: What would you do for the Artil—I mean what was your job going to be or what was your job with the Artillery?
M: Actually the job was supposed to be but never did that either. [Narrator laughs] Uh, the t-training was called af—uh I uh keep on telling ya about I mean I went to Ft. Sill Oklahoma for training for that.
S: Ft. Sill Oklahoma.
M: After basic training. And at that time they were using a uh—what’s called a 109 Tow Howitzer,3 they don’t use that any more but, uh, they uh, that’s the can—that’s the cannon or the artillery piece they were using, they teach ya how to load it, teach to a, put charges into the— into the a—charges into the a— canisters [Narrator gestures putting charges in canister] so how far you want to shoot it, range you want to shoot it, [Narrator gestures firing with his fingers out] elevation, land down, or laying it out, [Narrator gestures arms out palms down] kinda thing.
S: So—nuh, it was training that allowed you to shoot the cannon or howitzer more effectively?
M: Right, right.
S: So was their a lot of mathematics?
M: [Narrator smiles] No, actually.
S: No.
M: Nah, if you would have gone and then like—if you would have gone and done like a forward observer you would have done that, all we had to worry about doing was going by the clicks [Narrator gestures clicks] on the cause ther-there was an elevation click to go up and down [Narrator gestures up] and like left and right [Narrator gestures left and right] ele—for going left and right on the piece that was it. [Narrator swings hands back and forth]
S: So your talking about an elevation click that’s that’s some sort of device on the howitzer that you—
M: Uh its just the thing to move it to go up so how h-high up, actually—actually I should say click [Narrator gestures click] cause it wasn’t really a click, uh it was kind of a crank [Narrator gestures crank] that went up and down.
S: And it had grades and degrees of—
M: Right.
S: Ok.
M: And they would just tell you, they would tell you, they would tell you what to set it at because that’s what the forward observer will tell you any way, all you would do is set it at what they told you to do.
S: So your job would have be all the things you, you were being trained for all the things at the cannon or was their specific duty you had?
M: All of them, you could be the one doing, doing the elevation, [Narrator gestures up and down] you could be the one putting I said the charges [Narrator gestures back] inside, inside of the container [Narrator gestures holding a container] for how far for how far you going to shoot it, I-I think I think its like we had one bag to—up to maybe five bags of explosives [Narrator grabs imaginary bag and swings arm forward] to shoot to fire the round out.
S: So you were actually loading explosives into the shells?
M: Into the shell? A charge into it, yeah.
S: Ok—So you did this because you were—uh You chose that job because your Father was in the service and he was in the artillery?
M: Correct.
S: So did you have a lot of influence from your Father to join the service?
M: [Narrator sets back and stairs out recollecting] Probably—[Narrator nods] probably as far as—[Narrator scrunches up the right side of his mouth in indecision] as being a way to get – I don’t know—I do have time to think right? [Narrator smiles and pauses]
S: You Do.
M: I would think you know that I mean—I would think that uh—I was influenced from, when I was a kid—[Narrator scrunches face] when I was a kid about being in the military so.
S: So your—Your Father was—in the service during WWII is that correct?
M: Correct.
S: And then He stayed in the service {afterwards}—
M: {Gurads,} National Guards.
S: National Guards.
M: Yeah.
S: So Your—you kinda had a military family when you were growing up is that correct?
M: Not reall—not like in the sense [Narrator smiles] that he is a life time. Cause he— cause I told ya he worked for bell telephone.
S: Right.
M: But I mean as far as him being in the military and being very heavily into the—military—yeah. [Narrator nods] And I even worked at—worked—helped—I even worked at the camp the summer camp that he did when I was a kid.
S: You worked at a summer camp that was—for soldiers is that correct?
M: Yeah.
S: Tell me about that? What did you do there, what was going on there?
M: They go—they just go to Camp Grayling up in Michigan. [Narrator clears throat] And they went to Camp Grayling every two year—two weeks every summer initially to practice artillery stuff and I didn’t go into the field [Narrator smiles] all I did was, serve officers their meals and then clean their dishes and set up.
S: Do you think your Father uh—ran his family in a way that was influenced by his experience in the service?
M: Yeah. [Narrator smiles]
S: So Kind of—
M: Organized. Try to be anyway.
S: Disciplined and organized.
M: Yeah. [Narrator shakes his head in confirmation]
S: So do you think when you joined the service you were also a disciplined and organized person? You were very young at the time but.
M: [Narrator pauses]Yeah I-I to a certain extent probably because, being—being having I mean a sense of being having an objective as far as like—but that has also to—there was probably bearings having been in sports to so—as far as being you have an objective to do and you got to do it—the idea of not quitting doing something.
S: So sports may have also influenced you I mean in certain ways?
M: Influenced me?
S: To join the service?
M: No, not to—what I am saying is sports probably—the idea—not giving up not quitting [Narrator chops his arms on the table] on something even though you don’t like doing it that that probably was—was influenced by just sports.
S: So then sports helped—the sports taught you skills that would allow you to continue when you were in the service?
M: Probably.
S: Now you had mentioned that you had—that you were interested in the Airborne training did you do Airborne training?
M: Yes, I Did.
S: So—
M: [Narrator smiles] But I didn’t do Airborne training because I was interested in Airborne training. I actually told you that. [Narrator gives a mater of fact expression]
S: Well, yeah I think you did say that, [Narrator nods his head with a smile] what were you—why were you motivated to do it then, I mean—you did it you weren’t interested in it what was—
M: Because when I did sign up—um they told me when I signed up I was a—that I was too short I wanted to be a I wanted to be I really wanted to be a military police they told me I was to short to be a military police.
S: They had height requirements {for the military police?}
M: [Narrator smirks] {No, that’s what they said.}
S: That’s what they said.
M: But then—then they said like if you go in the Airborne—they’ll think you could handle yourself. [Narrator smiles] So you could become an MP which was not true but—so I sig—I fell into that. {Narrator smiles] That’s why I got inta the Airborne.
S: So it was kind of the recruiter, cause you were not drafted you—
M: Right.
S: joined the service?
M: Right.
S: It was kind of a recruiters tactic to get you to sign up?
M: I’m a—I’m a—that I can only speculate on [Narrator smiles] I think. I’m assuming that that was something he did, because once you sign up—[Narrators eye brows go up] you couldn’t change—couldn’t change to be an MP. I was kinda stuck. [Narrator smiles]
S: You also went to USMAPS, or the United States Military Academy Prep School. Tell me a little bit about that and why you were motivated to do that?
M: [Narrator Laughs] uh actually I wanted to go there beca—[Narrator Laughs] I was in the 82nd Airborne and a—for almost five months at—Fort Bragg, North Carolina. And I and it was actually really kinda boring, [Narrator smiles] you spent one month going out to the field one month doing—uh in base stuff like moving—moving furniture to li—to peoples houses and stuff th-that lived on the base and doing like base chores and one month you’d be on—and doing other things but in month you’d be on—uh you’d be on a—uh call be like—have y-your duffle bag had to be packed ready to go all the time for a month. So it’d be on a like a on a flip [Narrator gestures circular motion] just like that all the time I d-didn’t like doing that. So I had a friend of mine that was at West Point Prep School—[Narrator smiles] and in the military and he was telling me how it was s’posed to be pretty easy to be there as far as getting weekends off to go home cause it was right outside Washinton DC, so uh—So he thought he thought it was a good—he thought it was a good—a good station so that’s one of the reasons why I went there. And then I also thought it would be k-kinda neat to go to West Point Prep Sch—West Point—West Point actually probably would have been kinda cool. Probably if I would have—but I didn’t get there—but that would have been kinda nice.
S: To get in to the prep school—uh you have to be selected?
M: Correct.
S: And—did you—did you have to be like selected on a list, like the Senators or the Congressmen from your state?
M: No.
S: That’s to only get into West Point, correct?
M: Correct.
S: How did you apply for West Point Prep School or I mean the uh—yeah the prep school?
M: T-they—they had—they had forms you had to apply for. You had to g-get a letter from your commander, [Narrator raises one finger] you had to get letters from back home, like—from like My wrestling coach. [Narrator raises second finger then swings it back] Uh you had to get transcripts from school. Uh then you had send all that—all that package in. [Narrator pauses] Uh and from then they would select you and its not—those are you go there with the idea of maybe getting a presidential—selection. Cause those are unlimited. Senatorial ones are limited. So everybody—everybody that was at the prep school were the ones—were the people that—that wanted to go to West Point—for some reason—they couldn’t go either because of maybe when they were in High School they didn’t do any sports stuff—cause West Point was a whole man kinda thing—concept. I mean there were guys there that were very intelligent when they were in high school but they never did anything as community service wise or sports wise. So instead of being sent right to West Point they came here—they came to prep school for the—[Narrator chokes down a gulp] for the year. Which basically was the first half of the year, you’re just basically studying for taking SAT’s. That’s the biggest thing you are studying for, for the first half of the year.
S: So, the reason that you went to USMAPS was because you, thought it would be an easy position to work in and you thought it might be cool to go to West Point but—you didn’t go to West Point and—so was there any other reason why you wanted to go to West—West Point—I mean you said it would be a good thing but, were you planning on having a career in the service?
M: At tha—at that point in time—no. [Narrator laughs] But in actual—actua—but—but being there—if I probably wouldn’t gone to West Point Prep School I d-don’t know if I would have been—I think it helped me when it came—when I went to college. I mean I didn’t—I really wasn’t that big of a great student—I wasn’t very good of a student I mean I wasn’t like a bad student in high school. But I wasn’t that good of a student in high school. I didn’t really set down and do a lot of STUDYIN’4 in high in high school or there you had—you had—I mean the hole day pre—I mean half your day was spent—[Narrator expresses challenge of experience] doing classes. I mean you spent probably two math classes a day. Two English classes a day and then you’d have some kind of a—Sports—or like a gym—or a physical activity in the afternoon besides the military part of it you’d—cause you had to have your room all ship shape—and all your clothes had to be—cause you’d get inspected in the morning—that kinda thing. I think just being there— kinda like hel—it helped me it disciplined me as far as—you know needing to study, focus5 on something and think kinda even—even—set me more to where I wanted—even more so for college before I went there. Thi— that helped me a lot making it through college. Even though that wasn’t me consep—[Narrator smiles] that wasn’t why I went there. But I think it did do that. [Narrator shakes head in confirmation]
S: Did you receive college credit there?
M: No. Matter fact—matter fact—I didn’t as a matter of fact if you looked at it—I didn’t score that well on the SAT when I was there either. Math an—math an—the math part wise.
S: Did you complete the course?
M: Well I was—did I complete the whol—the year?
S: Yes.
M: I graduated as far as you graduate, but—at the end of your year you either get picked up—you either get picked up for West Point or you don’t. [Narrator’s eyes scowl]
S: And you did not?
M: No. [Narrator expresses disappointment in himself]
S: So, what did you do then?
M: I still had some time—time left on my three year obligation. So I spent probably—[Narrator’s pushes out lips] a couple weeks probably—uh just waiting to get—placed some place. Working around—I had—had to do things around—around—actually that it was at Fort Belvar, Virginia that’s were West Point Prep School is at. Uh, I was workin’—I was working around Fort Belvar around the—camp. It wasn’t very long about a week or two until I got orders to get sent to Germany. Then after—before that then I then I was able to go home for about three days before I left.
S: So going back to uh—before you had joined the military and ac—while you were in the service what were your career goals when you had finished high school?
M: I told you—I wanted to go to college. At that time I thought I was gonna wanna be a cop.
S: Ok, and of course the recruiter had told you couldn’t—serve as a Military Police officer?
M: Cause of height wise.
S: So then upon your completion of—military service were you planning then to go to school of course with the GI Bill—
M: That’s right.
S: and pursue criminal justice as an education?
M: No cause actually—cause actually after—when I came back from Germany—when I came back from Germany that changed for just being a police officer I was debating becoming either a teacher—or—a cop. And a teacher might have been—influenced by my oldest brother who was a teacher. So that may—he may have been an influence on that. But then after being a police officer—after working at a Police Department— AFTER working at the Police Department for awhile—I-I didn’t want to become a police officer.
S: Now, you were in Germany when you had decided that you interested in maybe becoming a teacher and you said you were influenced by your brother who was a teacher and you had also just mentioned that you had worked at a police department was that while you were—in Germany?
M: No.
S: That was afterward?
M: No—even though even though I had trained—on—to be a cannon—cocker [Narrator makes dice rolling gesture] or shooter—I never touched one again. After—after—after—after—being training with it. My first assignment for the 82nd Airborne was—were kinda going back and forth but—at 82nd Airborne as a radio operator. [Narrator clicks thumb on imaginary radio] And I worked with a—oh what they call it I can’t think of it now—he’s almost like a—he’s like a—he’s almost like a Forward Observer. But I didn’t—I didn’t even touch can cannon. I was a jeep op—jeep driver—and a radio operator. So I didn’t do anything. When I was in Germany I-I was in I-I worked at nuclear—nuclear war head site.
S: What did you do there?
M: I was a—was a—I—started off like being a guard for a short period of time. And then—then—I became a—Sarg—and an then I became a Sergeant where I was managing people. First man-managing people on—on the post, [Narrator waves arms to gesture the whole post] and then managing people in—the access in and out of—[narrator gestures with his finger back and forth] out of the warhead site. It was a Pershing Missile warhead site. They don’t have those any more.
S: Atomic Weapons—medium range?6
M: Yeah—they don’t have Pershing Missiles any more.
S: So when you were joining the Army in 1971 your influence was to get uh an education but did you think that you had a chance of going to Vietnam?
M: [Narrator smiles] Yeah I actually Volunteered for that. [Narrator Nods, smiles and laughs] I volun—I did Volunteer for Vietnam. [Narrator has a matter of fact face expression]
S: What was your motivation there.
M: My motivation there was—when I was at—when I was at artillery school I went— I-I volunteered because I had a friend of mine that a—that was—that graduated the year before I did and we had talked about being in the military together too. I-I and I had kinda talked to him [Narrator expresses uncertainty] or people thought I guess I talked him into it I don’t know I don’t know if I did or not— helped talked him to getting in. And HE did join—before I did—and HE was an MP—HE did get sent to Vietnam. So I kinda felt like—that like I almost had an obligation maybe to even to—[Narrator shakes his head expressing uncertainty] since I s’posedly talked HIM in to going—better go myself. So—um—so I-I had—when I was at uh—MOS7 training which is like—means you training for artillery school—they had a meeting and asking people if they WANTED to be if you WANTED [Narrator’s eyes pop] to volunteer to go there. And I said I would—cause they would do all the things—cause they would do things like [Narrator adjusts his pillow and scrunches face in pain] are you the last surviving son or—that means you can’t go um—and I said that I’d go but then—but then—when I went up there they told me if I had to go there I’d have to give up [Narrator swallows hard from sore throat] my guarantee to be an Airborne and I’m going like nah I’m not doing that. Cause there’s no telling—cause—cause people already said some things like—[Narrator expresses pain and discomfort] uh you gotta be careful with that because they might send you some place—you might think your going one—they’ll send one place else—your better off keeping your guarantee. Tha-that parts guaranteed. So if you say I wanna go to Vietnam you may not go to Vietnam. You still might not go to Vietnam. Which in the long term its probably better I didn’t go [narrator smiles with a little laugh] but, yeah I did—I did—I did and had intentions to volunteer. So I did told them I would but I wouldn’t sign—sign for my—for my guarantee to go to Airborne School. So I didn’t go.
S: You said you convinced your friend to join the Army to be an MP [Narrator smiles] is that correct?
M: Uh people thought—[Narrator expresses confusion] I mea—we had talked about it. People—I mean—probably more so probably his—his sister or something would told ya—I talked him—talked him in to going. I don’t—I don’t know—I don’t know if I did or not. I mean—I don’t know how I could make somebody totally go but—[Narrator smiles and laughs]
S: What was his name?
M: Tom Campbell.
S: Tom Campbell. So he joined before 1971 or—
M: He joined in 1970. He graduated the year before I did.
S: He must have been taller then you?
M: Oh yeah he was! [Narrator smiles and shakes his head. Interviewer laughs.] He was in the 101st. He was a dog handler—in Nam.
S: So part of your motivation to go—or to volunteer was because he went and you felt sympathy for him going?
M: Now sympathetic—[Narrator expresses uncertainty] I don—I mean I felt sympathy probably felt like a—a sense of like comroderation—[camaraderie] but I don’t know thinkin’ that—I talked him into going maybe coming, he’s there—maybe I should be doing the same thing. I don’t know.
S: So did—did her—did his family or sister in particular make you feel guilty [Narrator squints] in any way—about him leaving and you—
M: Probably a little bit.
S: and her—and her mind—
M: She didn’t—she didn’t have any animosity about it. But I mean—she would be saying things like—would bring up things like well you talked him—or even her mother [Narrator’s eye brows pop] her mother would say the same things too so.
S: So they—they thought that you had pushed their s—their brother and s-son into {war?}
M: {Or yeah did a little yeah} ASSISTED.
S: Yeah, and he was interested in being a police officer also?
M: I’m not sure he was that or not. We both—our both—our both motivations was GI Bill. [Narrator Pause] So—that’s—that’s we were—that’s I remember talking about was more—you know—I’m not sure—I’m not sure he wanted to be a cop or not. It could have been that one—I don’t know. But I thought but I thought I wanted to be a cop. So—so.
S: Uheh, when you joined there was a growing anti-war movement in the United States and eh—how did that influence your decision to join the army especially after the My Lai Massacre the Kent State and the Pentagon Papers—
M: {Foolish.} [Narrator curls lip to express disapproval]
S: {that came out later in 1971?}
M: [Narrator smiles] Those didn’t have any influence on me. [Narrator smiles shakes head no]
S: Why were those things not influential?
M: Why were they not? Because of the fact is that [Narrator pauses] I—personally I think those guys are kinda silly people as far as uh—I mean I thought they were actually wrong on—I think—I think you need to support—people in the military no matter—I mean its not the soldier that goes—goes over and starts the war it was—it was people who had—people who head countries that start the war its not the soldiers that did that and its not in war—in war—there will be—there will be—cause I mean some people are human. There will be probably things that are—not—I wouldn’t say [Narrator shakes his head no] I mean like a mas—some people would think would be a massacre [Narrator pops eyebrows] or whatever.
S: You’re speaking to the My Lai incident
M: I don’t know like—but with things like being like—when people say like a kid getting shot or—what ever things that you would be horrific, that happened on both sides. I mean its easy to sit probably and talk and say—and I’m not saying—and I’m not justifying one or the other but—its easy to talk saying one thing and not being there. And I mean—cause there were actually—kids that would actually kill. And I know personally, if I saw my friend get capped by some kid, I’d cap that kid. [Narrator grins at uncomfortable topic]8
S: Right so—you said eh—that the people were silly and you meant in particular anti-war—the anti-war movement?
M: No, what I think is that they are taking out there anger—they shouldn’t take—they shouldn’t be like doing things against like a soldier—as opposed to the government.
S: So you were angry with—
M: Nah, I didn’t say I was angry— I said I thought they were WRONG!
S: Disagree?
M: I mean I know people who were SPIT on when they came back home. Not—soldiers in California. [Narrator scrunches face] Now it’s not the soldiers—the soldiers didn’t say hey I wanna—I wanna go to Vietnam [Narrator raises hand] so I can kill people. He was just sent there. It’s not his fault [Narrator shakes head] he got sent there. Should be doing that to him, {I mean—}
S: {It’s not} his fault that atrocities were committed even—
M: Correct. More likely he didn’t commit any atrocities. [Narrators furrows forehead] He just d-did his job.
S: So—I wanted to touch a little more on how you felt about Kent State and the Pentagon Papers too. Kent State—there were—you were interested in going to school and—
M: Kent State happened after—after I was out of the military I do believe.
S: It’s in 1970.
M: ’70, if it’s in ’70, then it was prior to.
S: Yeah, while you were in High School still. Uh— but you were interested in going to school and there were war protests which you—you know disagreed with what they were doing but—um—what did you think about students being murdered?9
M: [Narrator Pause] I think that’s wrong what they did as far as what the military did.
S: How much—uh—at the time in 1970 when you were in high school, did you know about it and how much as you got older?
M: On that same token—I mean on Kent State—it wasn’t it wasn’t active duty guys anyway it was—it was National Guard guys who are not—for one probably had probably no hardly—[Narrator shakes head no] any training at all—putting down a riot, [Narrator shakes head up and down] for one.10 I don’t know—[Narrator shakes head no] I don’t even know what occurred. They probably shouldn’t even had any—[Narrator’s eyes pop] they probably shouldn’t have had—ammunition but—So on—on that question I kinda lo-lost track on that question. How did I feel—I mean—I mean I think like what occurred is like—and I don’t even know what occurred. Cause there were like—things like—being thrown at the things beings thrown at the Guradsmen—uh—uh—I mean—I cant jus- uh justify shooting somebody I don’t—I don’t d—I don’t agree with that. I wasn’t—I wasn’t at the incident so I mean like—[I think its wrong what they did but—that had no bearing on me [Narrator smiles] as far as like you talking about me going to school or not?
S: Tal—I’m talking about joining the service.
M: No, [Narrator pushes out lips] it had no bearing on that.
S: So at the time—um—had you much of an opinion about it or did you develop more of an opinion later on in life?
M: As far as is it the right or wrong thing to do?
S: Right
M: [Narrator pauses] Actually I was probably more influenced by—by—probably more influenced by what my Dad would say. [Narrator smiles] Because he was a National Guradsmen so.
S: And he was probably on the side of the military.
M: Right, and I-I—I’m going like being—guys in the Guards made a mistake—[Narrator softly furrows forhead] being human—but theirs consequences for it. But again that’ed by my—and I think at that time they were—at that time they were weren’t even training them to do that kinda stuff.
S: So how about the Pentagon Papers are you familiar with those?
M: No.
S: So, didn’t make an impact on you?
M: No.
S: Ok—were going to stop the tape now and interview again later.


S: This is Scott Merrow interviewing Michael Jon Clark. This is tape two-A. It is octob—excuse me November 4th 2007. S-so Michael when you first enlisted you were sent to basic training where did you did you train and what were some of your experiences?
M: Uh I trained in Fort Knox Kentucky—[Narrator clears his throat] And actually I probably uh—probably some of the experiences were probably actually—[Narrator clears his throat] more new experiences with a—minority people so.
S: So you previously hadn’t had much experience with minorities in Lansing?
M: Not—not in Holt—where I went to school at. In fact there was—I don’t I don’t think there was any African Americans in Holt, when I was there. So, There were very few minorities in Holt period.
INTERRUPTION
S: So you didn’t have a lot of experience [phone rings] with minorities how did this experience change your outlook of minorities?
M: Didn’t really change at all it-it’s—just being exposed I guess. Its its a Different people had different kind of attitudes then we did I guess. [Narrator clears his throat]
S: So was there any racism? [Narrator shifts gave to recollect] Did you experience any racism when you were either—racism against yourself or did you experience other people being racist against these minorities?
M: No, I didn’t—I didn’t see it.
S: So, at Fort Knox you were in basic training and—that is basic soldiering skills?
M: Right.
S: And then you went to train for your—your MOS?
INTERRUPTION
S: So then you went to study your MOS where did go then?
M: I went to Fort Sill Oklahoma for that.
S: And that’s were you were training for Artillery?
M: Correct.
S: What were some of your experiences there?
M: [Narrator smiles] I had the same kinda problems with—[Narrator clears his throat] just problems with people like—no again I had problems with uh—[Narrator grins] a minority person there but that had do with going to KP—uh kitchen working in the kitchen.
S: Ok, KP is
M: {They thought}
S: {kitchen patrol or}
M: Right. Working in the kitchen—the mess hall. And you jobs were based on—the job you had to do at the mess hall—
S: Um huh.
M: The better job you could get—you could get a b-better job if you got there early.
S: Um huh.
M: And uh, so you tried—tried to get there early so you could get the best job. The worst job being pots and pans cleaner. And one of the guys i-in my barracks—tr-tried to say that he did not get wo-woken up by the—[Narrator grins] by the Fire Watch guy and yet he did cause I-I heard him get w—I heard him get—get called and when I said something b-bout that at the mess hall he got ticked off.
S: What uh—
M: Cause [Narrator smiles] he-he did get pots and pans.
S: When—when a you talk about getting there early you mean that each day it was important to be there as soon as possible or—
M: Well, I mean you might you might have been assigned maybe two times during the times the times you got picked for kitchen duty. First one—the person who got there first would get best duty which might mean you might get to clean up the place where everybody ate at. [Narrator gestures out with hand] That was the easiest job. As opposed to doing the pots and pans or—doing the peeling. [Narrator smiles and makes a peeling motion]
S: What is a Fire Watch?
M: Fire Watch? [Narrator shakes his head]
S: Or what is—you said it was a Fire Watch—
M: Fire Watch cause all the builacks—all the barracks were actually like probably at least—WWII or probably actually WWI buil-builitings. The barracks were really old so they were like a fire hazard. So they had—so they had to have a guy—one guy had to stay up because you could smoke—[Narrator holds imaginary cigarette] you could smoke in you’re uh—you could smoke in uh in the barracks then. So in case somebody didn’t put there butt out right, [Narrator acts out putting a butt out] because s’possidly the—s’possidly the—the barracks could be burnt up in about fifteen twenty minutes.
S: Wow, were—were there—any experiences of—
M: No. [Narrator shakes head no]
S: No, you didn’t see any fires.
M: No, its just—its just the—everybody had to—it was a mandatory thing b-barracks had to have that.
S: So you mentioned that this particular fellow who felt that he was not woken up by the Fire Watch was upset with you. How—
M: [Narrator smiles] Oh yeah cause he almost wanted to get in a fight with me.
S: Well explain to me more about that.
M: No, he—he just wanted—he just wanted to get in a fight about it but the but the guys in the cooks and stuff stopped—broke it up.
S: What particularly made him upset with you?
M: Because—because I told him he got woken woken up the same time I did.
S: So—um—he was complaining—and you were there or he was complaining to you and—
M: No, he was complaining to the cooks, that he was unfairly, getting the job of pots and pans, because no one got him up. I told hi—[Narrator grins] I said yeah you did because—cause—cause that guy that got you up right after he got me up cause I heard him call ya and you answer.
S: So there was a—tension between you and this fellow and he was a minority—um was the tens—and—and the way you have described it, it had nothing to do with him being of a different ethnicity as you. But did—was there an ethnic tension then between you and this fellow?
M: No, actually after that—after that w-we talked to each other after that.
S: So, you patched it up?
M: Yeah.
S: So he tried to start a fight with you but—there wasn’t any violence?
M: No.
S: He just—got in your face?
M: Kinda like that. [Narrator grins]
S: Was there any other uh—experiences that you had at uh Fort Sill?
M: Other then it being as cold as heck, no. [Narrator smiles] No.
S: [Interviewer laughs] So you were being trained during the Winter?
M: Yeah [Narrator clears his throat] we did have the base close one day. [Narrator expresses a uncertainty in the importance of his comment]
S: The base closed because of Snow?
M: No. Ice.
S: So you were being trained on using the—the Howitzer—the 105.
M: Yep.
S: And so when—when you were doing the training what did they do did they have you wake up at the crack of dawn or—
M: {Usually—}
S: {What— what was the average—}
M: {We—we usually} probably got up at five thirty in the morning.
S: Um huh, and then what?
M: And then get dressed—[Narrator nods] go eat chow—[Narrator nods] get on the trucks—[Narrator nods] I mean actually we started off being we’d have classes first. And then we were going out to the field almost everyday.
S: What kind of classes?
M: Just how to—how to—how to load [Narrator swings arm to portray loading canister] the canisters—maybe uh—and maybe a little pieces of the—[Narrator gestures for the pieces] pieces of the uh howitzer. And then they took uh—they’d do grids, even though—[Narrator gestures with hands] even though you didn’t do that. They wanted you to do grid stuff and some grids on a map stuff.
S: So when they woke you up and you were in the barracks was there some body barking at you?
M: No. [Narrator shakes head no] No.
S: So you would in the beginning of your training you were doing more classroom work?
M: Probably for the first couple weeks.
S: Was there a lot of PT?
M: Actually there wasn’t a lot of PT there. [Narrator laughs]
S: So you {said}
M: {we didn’t} do a lot of PT there.
S: Ok.
M: Surprisingly. We should have been but we didn’t do that.
S: So after you had done some work in the classrooms then you were going out into the field?
M: [Narrator shakes head yes]
S: Um, were there tests in the classroom or was it just—
M: Oh yeah you—you—you would get tested on out in the field.
S: Um you were trained for all the different types of jobs and what was your favorite?
M: [Narrator expresses confusion] What was my favorite?
S: Whe-when I mean jobs uh I mean particular missions that you had to do on the howitzer like loading or brining the ammo in or—?
M: Actually I thought probably like—[Narrator grins] I remember like doing maybe putting the stuff filling the canisters cause it was the least to get in trouble in. [Narrator smiles]
S: Ok and the canisters you’re talking about like a shell?
M: The shell that the round went on top of.
S: So it’s a—you would have an empty shell and you would fill it with you had described earlier as packets?
M: Of charges, yeah.
S: Ok.
M: Depends on how far the round was supposed to go.
S: And then you would put the round in the top of that?
M: Right then there—[Narrator gestures handing up round] there was a person who handed the shell up to someone up by the howitzer and he would put it into the thing into the—[Narrator gestures putting round into breach] I don’t even remember what its called anymore now so—[Narrator gestures uncertainty] so he locked it into the chamber and then somebody would be doing the elevation [Narrator cranks elevation] and there would be someone else over doing the ah left to right [Narrator gestures left to right] and then there would be one person I-I’m not—either the it was either the person the elevation guy [Narrator gestures to hold crank] or the guy with the lanturn poll [Narrator gestures holing poll] would actually fire that cannon off. [Narrator gestures pulling firing mechanism]
S: So you were working on one cannon with a team but were you ever training with several different teams and several different cannons? Like {where you all had to hit one place}
M: {No you’d be like—no you’d be like—} [Narrator gestures central group location] you would have probably you would have five guys to a team—an there would be more then one howitzer in a line but—you would just be working with your team. And that was slow paced so—it wasn’t the kinda thing like where you were rushing from loading and how fast you can load it and stuff. For safety reasons.
S: So how long would it take your team to get an order and then fire it? Even though you—you said it was slow for safety reasons how long do you think it took?
M: Maybe about three—cause you—you could probably load one in three—three to five minutes probably.
S: Three to five minutes.
M: Three minutes would probably be easy to load. Again remember I said they would make sure that eve-everybody in the line was ready to fire first then they would all fire. [Narrator gestures to show the line and then yanks imaginary firing mechanism]
S: In a combat situation would you—I don’t know if you would know this you weren’t in combat but would you have time to pack the canisters?
M: You would have to do that.
S: Set—set the—set the ammunition up before hand.
M: No.
S: Each time—?
M: You might be able to if you knew that the same rounds were going to be fired over and over and over again. Same distance. But you wouldn’t probably do that because—at first off you might—you probably—probably trying to hit the target first so you wouldn’t do that until got fire for effect or something like that.
S: So was there like different types of rounds, like smoke rounds and High Explosive rounds?
M: Smoke—they were like H.E. rounds or High Explosive rounds there would be like a—in Vietnam no we didn’t fire um—we didn’t fire um—WE didn’t fire um.
S: You didn’t fire those type of rounds?
M: We fired H.E.—rounds. But there was rounds in Vietnam that were they would be like a—you could you could train the fuse [Narrator gestures imaginary fuse] if you were it wouldn’t hit the ground [Narrator points towards ground] before it blew up it blew up in the air. [Narrator makes explosion gesture] So blow up. [Narrator makes explosion gesture then mimics like he is holding a round] And they had rounds that had like inside—inside the shell it had—like uh I think they call it flaechettes or something like that there like little sharp things when they come out their kinda—like a Bee Hive round. [Narrator holds out fingers and pushes the air away from his body mimicking they round] That’s a—that’s—they had a Bee Hive round in case like a Fire Base got attacked that you shoot out—and it would kinda like spread out like a shot gun. [Narrator gestures to show rounds spreading out] We didn’t fire those though.
S: You didn’t get to fire any of the fun rounds—um only the uh—basics. Was there any other types of weapons that you fired? Or learned how to operate?
M: Uh—we did get the chance to ah—we didn’t fire it a lot cause because—cause it cost a lot of money for the round—uh like a one-five-fi—155 howitzer which is like can maybe shoot like fifteen mile.
S: Wow, now how about the 105 do you know what the range was of that?
M: Think its five.
S: Five miles.
M: And then they also had a uh—and then and then the uh—the round on the 155 was so big that you couldn’t—[Narrator gestures holding round] it took two men to put it on to like a on to like a electric—electric loader. You would put the shell up there and then the electric loader up in—[Narrator gestures loader putting round in] in to the breach then fire it off. [Narrator clears throat] And they also had—we had a chance to I think it was a day or so practice on—ah is a one, one oh five—I can’t remember what they called it then—it was a mobilized 105. [Narrator points forward] Where it was inside sort of a tank structure that they used. [Narrator waves hands over table and gestures hands forward] We did we did get to practice on that for about a day. That—that was different because one—on a tow [Narrator waves hands over table] you wouldn’t have to worry about recoil coming back—[Narrator gestures thumb back] and that uh mobile one you had to be careful cause if you were behind the breach [Narrator gestures breach coming back] when it came back it could actually hit you in the head and crush you in to the back. [Narrator gestures breach smashing against him.] So—so you had to stand off to the sides. [Narrator pushes palms out to the sides] It was all self contained—it wasn’t an armored vehicle but it—so instead of having to take a truck and stop—and going out and setting—setting your forks out on your tow—the mobilized one you just drive it some place, [Narrator drives hand across table] set it right there and then you would fire right—fire it. It was s’pposed to be faster. Actually it was kinda—it was kinda nice, it looked like a tank.
S: So it was fun looking?
M: Yeah it was fun. [Narrator nods]
S: You mentioned that on the 105 I believe, you said there was forks. What—what’s that?
M: 105?
S: Yeah.
M: Its towed because it comes up like a—like a—trailer hi—like a trailer thing. [Narrator mimics the forks coming together to form hitch] You put it up like this, comes up to the trailer thing then you come out the forks come out. [Narrator separates hands to demonstrate forks becoming stabilizing arms for howitzer] You set it up so that—so that the base—so that when recoil comes back—it doesn’t stand up.
S: Ok so like the trailer hitch would split, and then you would have supporting {beams to—to help with recoil?}
M: {Yeah the beams would go out} like CHH [Narrator makes noise and demonstrates with arms again] and you set them down.
S: So your saying that they would split apart and then, lay on the ground.
M: [Narrator shakes head yes]
S: Alright now you used diff—you were trained on different types of weapons uh—what is the use of a 105mm cannon versus the use of a 155mm cannon?
M: Its distance.
S: Distance—and—
M: And—and—and more likely the one five—the 105 in Nam was probably used more then the 155 cause its easier to go from one place to another place.
S: Does it have a significant role in anti-personnel versus anti-armor or—either—either one?
M: Each one have a round—I mean—I think the 155 has more distance and a bigger round to do impact but they had an armor piercing round on the 105.
S: So after—
M: Excuse me, excuse me!
INTERRUPTION Narrator sneezes
S: So you mentioned that after a time you had talked to the fellow that you had almost got into a fight with about being woke up and being on— kitchen duty or what did—what did you call it?
M: KP.
S: KP. So what happened between you later on?
M: I said we had a conversation one night. One night I think I had—Fire Watch. And when he came back in—he came back in and I was talking to some—I was already talking to some friends of mine who had gone into town and gotten a tattoo. [Narrator looks over at arm] We just started BSing. Actually—actually probably he was kinda a cool guy actually.
S: So—he came back from town after getting a tattoo?
M: No he didn’t, he came back in from town from just going to town, I had a friend of mine that had already been to town and got a little drunk AND got a tattoo. [Narrator smiles]
S: And so he came back to town or came back to the base?
M: And he was showing it off him—[Narrator looks and touches arm] him and his buddy had come back and one of his friends had gone to town he was showing me his tattoo.
S: So that’s how the ice was kinda broken between—
M: Yeah, well c-cause—cause—cause the one guy I had a conversation with he came in and we just started just BSing. Along with the other guy cause he kinda came in and sat down.
S: Alright.
M: Cause you only had you only had fire duty for about two hours and then you get some else to take your place.
S: So you were woken up during the night—
M: Could be.
S: To take over—to take over the Fire Watch duty.
M: I think fire—[Narrator scrunches face expressing uncertainty] I think maybe lights out was maybe around nine or ten o’clock, when the lights went out then the fire watch had to come on.
S: After you finished your MOS training—uh where did you go?
M: To jump school—at Fort Benning Georgia.
S: Ok.
M: And that kinda being like first week there you kinda like—you get there its called Zero Week.
S: What’s Zero Week?
M: Zero Week all you do is—all you do is like ah—two times a day you do like ah calisthenics. One you do pushups and stuff like that your going to do and then basically after that you didn’t have to do to much of anything the first week. [Narrator raises lip on left side]
S: Why’s it called Zero Week do you know?
M: Cause that’s what they call it. Cause i-if you mess up—in fact some guys—[Narrator points] some guys that were in my section or—in my flight—in my jump school thing—they got kicked out actually they got busted—for drugs.
S: For drugs?
M: Yeah. [Narrator nods]
S: So they were kicked out of the Army?
M: They were—No, they were kicked out of jump school. Course the word was [Narrator gestures hand out] somebody said they were going to be sent to Vietnam. I think it was more of a scare tactic.
S: So some fellows were using drugs on the base or off the base?
M: On the base.
S: How many guys?
M: Just a couple guys.
S: Was there a lot of soldiers that were using drugs?
M: No that I’m aware of—I didn’t do it—then. [Narrator grins]
S: So this was a minority type thing or—a small amount of people?
M: Actually there was probably more then that were using but that’s all I knew who got busted. [Narrator smiles] Cause you didn’t have—cause—cause its like at jump school you have like Zero Week [Narrator counts finger] then you have—then you have what’s called—[Narrator counts finger] the first week is like uh is uh is like uh—I can’t I can’t remember the exact name it was called now. [Narrator expresses searching for answer] This—the first week you just work how to practice like how to jump out of a airplane. How-how to land and how to land—when you hit the ground. [Narrator wiggles fingers down] How to jump out—jump out of an airplane they had these little—they had these little uh [Narrator puts up his arm to demonstrate hooking up to the C130] towers—small towers—you go up on and you hook up like your gonna hook up to a—hook up in a C130 to jump—to jump. And you can practice like going to the door. [Narrator places his arms out like he is jumping out of the airplane]
S: What’s a C130?
M: Aircraft. It’s a—it’s a—p-propeller aircraft. It’s one-one of the things you can jump out of.
S: So—
M: You practice doing that for the first week.
S: So describe to me a little more about this plane you’re jumping out of. It’s on a tower? Is that correct?
M: No, no. That, that’s, you practice like, all it is, is like a little tower [Narrator holdsa hands above his head] with a little box on it with these lines going across. [Narrator runs his hand across imaginary line and continues to hold up his elbows] T-the tension lines aren’t the lines aren’t the tension lines you’d have when you jump out of a air p—[Narrator waves hands holding his elbows up] out of a C130.
S: So it’s a model compartment after a C130? The-the-the compartment—
M: It’s a door—it’s a door [Narrator extends arms out to side of imaginary door way] you go to that you practice jumpin’ out the door—[Narrator gestures coming out of door] cause you do—you practice jumpin’ out the door—when you’re in the C130.
S: What’s the line for?
M: The-the li—the line? [Narrator runs hand along imaginary line above his head]
S: You said there was a line in-inside there that—a quarter?
M: Because when you’re inside the C130—you don’t freefall, [Narrator shakes head no] you-you do a static line jump. Which means you hook up to a line—[Narrator gestures to hook to imaginary line] your-your parachute gets hooked to a line so when you jump out of that airplane the shoot gets pulled out. [Narrator points forward then back]
S: So you don’t actually pull your own shoot?
M: Right, you don’t pull a chute. [Narrator gestures pulling chute cord]
S: So you hook your parachute to a line that stays inside the airplane—
M: Correct.
S: And it is pulling your chute as you jump out?
M: Correct.
S: So in this training, you’re hooking up but you don’t have a parachute that’s just basically teaching you how to land when you hit the ground?
M: That-that-that’ll teach you how to jump from the plane. You you’d have a chute in the back lika-lika-lika what would be like a suit—[Narrator placing hands behind back where parachute would be] but you didn’t have a parachute on it, you just have a pack like it would be if you did wear if you had a parachute. {And you just—}
S: {So there was no real—} in the sense of the weight?
M: Right. So you just jump— you just go to the door and jump out the door—[Narrator gestures putting hands on doorway then places hand up on imaginary line] and you’d just like jump ou-out—and you’d slide down the—[Narrator moves hand forward down imaginary line] cable and get off but every time every time you did anything there, you’d always have to run everywhere you went you couldn’t walk.
S: There was a—
M: Or you’d get in trouble.
S: They were trying to make you do it as fast as possible?
M: Yeah, that’s the first week. And the second weeks tower week.
S: So in that second week you’re doing the same type of thing only you’re higher up?
M: Yeah, about 3 or 4 hundred feet up in the air. They would-the tower they had this big area this big tower—[Narrator stretches arms out] and they would have maybe one huge tower they had three— enough for like three chutes to get hung up on to [dryer buzzer rings and Narrator expresses shock] three chutes to get hooked onto—and what they’d do is like—and there’s a metal ring—[Narrator runs arms above his head in circular motion] that they had three rings on this thing [Narrator stretches arms out] and-and the ground all around the tower was plowed up so its really kinda soft. [Narrator rolls hands in circular motion to signify tilled up ground] You’d-you’d like ah—you’d go out there and they’d—you’d ah—snap [Narrator gestures hooking up] y-y-y-you’d snap that you’d usually hook a chute up to—that chute—and you’d—three guys at a time would be pulled up on the tower—[Narrator pushes hands up palms down] and once they got to the top—cause they also tell you how to do what’s called a slip—that means how to get your—get your chute to go up one direction or the other—and that was done by pulling some lines [Narrator noves arms above head to the left and scruntches face in pain] its different now but you’d pull like lines like this way if you wanted to go like that direction [Narrator lifts arms up to the left demonstrating the slip maneuver] or you’d pull your lines this way to go like that direction. [Narrator lifts arms up to the right demonstrating the slip maneuver]
S: What directions?
M: You can go like left or right so you don’t—so you don’t like either—one you don’t lay on top of someone else’s air—uh-uh parachute or y-you go where you wanna go once-once you get out of the aircraft. [Narrator swings arm forward]
S: So it was a way of teaching you how to {kinda—fly the parachute?}
M: {Control the chute a bit.}
S: Now you-you talked—about a snap—what exactly—you said that-that three-three soldiers are hooking their parachutes to a snap and then they’re being pulled?
M: No there’d be three rings. [Narrator loops arms above head]
S: Three rings?
M: Three big rings—it’d be a full parachute.
S: Ok.
M: One guy would be hooked up to a parachute underneath everybody else was hookin’ these snaps up around the outside. [Narrator gestures around in front of him]
S: Snaps around the outside of the parachute?
M: Of the ring. so its c-because [Narrator holds arms out to side] so its like the shoots already kinda—kinda like opened up—as opposed to like in the airplane its gotta open up by its-its gotta open up when you jump—the chutes already open so its got air on it—[Narrator bounces outstretched arms] underneath it when you go up—go up that four hundred feet—[Narrator brings outstretched arms above head] and then they’d tell ya—and then they would tell ya—to slip—[Narrator pulls imaginary slip down] pull the slip one way or the other way and once it did—once it did that—[Narrator demonstrates with hands] they-they would your chute would go up—and then it would go—and it would like release and y-you’d just float down. [Narrator brings arms down and to the side]
S: So they would lift you up—You’d be in a ring that-that held the parachute open and they would pull you up by like a crane or some sort—
M: Right,
S: Into the air, and they would you would be released—and then you could {practice—}
M: {Controlling your chute—} [Narrator gestures chute control]
S: {Using your slip to—}
M: And practice how you land when you hit the ground. [Narrator points down]
S: So it was like parachuting from a shorter distance—
M: Correct.
S: Than from the airplane?
M: That’s the second week.
S: And that’s about three hundred four hundred feet you said?
M: Yeah, cause the third week you jump.
S: So tell us about the third week?
M: The third week all you do is just jump.
S: So they take you up into the plane and—
M: And they try to—
S: How many successful parachute drops?
M: You’re supposed— you’re supposed to do five. But we—I—we didn’t do that many. [Narrator shakes head no and clears throat] Cause we were supposed to jump outta—the they try to give you more than one kind of jump. We jumped out of a C1—I jumped like three times—three C130 jumps but they were supposed to have a uh—like a uh—a 140 I think it was a C140—141[Narrator squints eyes while recollecting] which is like a jet. They were—we were supposed to do a jump outta that but when the day it came in they had problems with the jets so I mean it was a big jet. Um that one sometimes you jump out of the back end. Um—that’s more dangerous cause its got jet engines in it—but uh but we didn’t jump outta that at all. So just because of the fact that they came in—they— it broke—so they cancelled that jump. So we didn’t have to do that jump in a jet. So I had to make like three or four jumps and then after that the weeks over. You didn’t I said like the last week all [Narrator opens hands to show me] I was doing was just jumpin [Narrator nods affirmatively] then you graduated. And then you get sent to your next duty station.
S: Did anyone come to your graduation?
M: No. [Narrator expresses disappointment]
S: No. So you actually jumped—
M: I did go home after that but—
S: You di—you jumped about three or four times then you said—
M: At jump school
S: At jump School.
M: Then I jumped one more time after that?
S: How did you like parachuting?
M: Its fun. Actually it was fun doing a Chopper Blast. I did that later.
S: A Chopper Blast?
M: Yeah.
S: What’s that?
M: Jumpin out of the helicopter.
S: So—
M: Cause when you jump—you jump out of a C130 it feels like you’re going like this. [Narrator swooshes arm through the air] Feels like when you jump out you’re going like this [Narrator swooshes arm] but you’re not. Cause the airplanes moving. When you jump out you go like this. [Narrator swooshes arm]
S: You feel like you’re being pulled behind?
M: Right. And by the time—by the time your chute opens up—[Narrator looks from left to right] and you get situated—it’s almost time to land. Chopper Blast y-y-you jump— you gotta pull out—pull away FROM the helicopter. [Narrator pushes arms away from chest]
S: So you jump out and then you have—to try to direct yourself away from—
M: You gotta push yourself away from the helicopter.
S: Was—were the helicopters—standing still, like hovering? Or were they moving when you jumped?
M: They were moving when you jumped—over a jump area. Which is basically—[Narrator scrunches left side of mouth] that was at—that was at Fort Bragg—North Carolina. Which is where I got stationed at [Narrator points finger] 82nd Airborne, after jump school.
S: So you had left—uh your artillery unit and went into the 82nd Airborne it wasn’t that you got trained with the 82nd but you were actually in the 82nd Airborne.
M: I went from [Narrator pauses to think] the MOS of Artillery—[Narrator points left] jump school—[Narrator points to right] then I went to 82nd—[Narrator points left] 82nd Airborne and got assigned to a—artillery unit in 82nd Airborne. But when I got there I didn’t do—I-I-I wasn’t a cannon—[Narrator jerks fist gesturing cannon cocker] remember I wasn’t a cannon cocker there I was a radio operator. A jeep—radio operator.
S: So then you changed your MOS and got new training?
M: No.
S: They just handed {you the radio?}
M: {Tha-that’s the} job they-they had you do. Yeah. [Narrator smiles]
S: So was there any further training aside from the airborne training that you did with the 82nd Airborne?
M: No. [Narrator shakes head no] No.
S: Were there—parts of the 82nd Airborne that were in combat—
M: No.
S: Or was the whole unit in the United States?
M: No, I m-mean the only thing I said—that chopper blast was kinda fun. [Narrator grooves head back and forth] That’s cause—That’s cause in the 82nd Airborne you got paid—[Narrator grin] When you’re in the Airborne you got paid extra money. Fifty-Five dollars a month—for jumpin. Cause its called hazardous duty pay. So—and you have to jump once every three months or—cause they call—they call it a pay hurt. So—cause if you don’t jump a-after three months—you lose your jump pay. So—people that need a jump pay—they just—that’s—they just set up a whole day when there’s tons of people jumpin those Chopper Blasts’s. That—that—that was a trip though too. [Narrator starts grooving back and forth] That was probably my—best jump but it was probably the most—probably could have been one of the most dangerous jumps. So—I mean cause uh—whe—I mean that day I thought we could jump more then one time so we did—we didn’t get to.
INTERRUPTION we were finished but he brought up more story
S: So why was the Chopper Blast jump more exciting and more dangerous?
M: Because one—one—I think its more exciting because—cause like—in a C130 you can’t see out—unless you’re the door person—[Narrator points fingers out] firs-first person out—you really don’t get a chance to see what the ground—the ground looks like. [Narrator waves hands in front of himself] In chopper blast—you see the ground. Because you’re on the side of a chopper d-d with both sides opened up—[Narrator places hands together then pulls them apart] so there’s like—but it will open up with like six guys on it—s-so you see the ground all the time. So you know exactly where—where you are. In a C130—in a C130 you just kinda like basically [Narrator waves hands away from self] just jump out—on-on a—on the a—Chopper Blast you gotta kinda like put your feet on the a—on the a railing on the bottom and push yourself—and make sure— make sure you push yourself away [Narrator puts arms behind back] from that when you shoot out because it is still static line. [Narrator points above head to imaginary line] There’s a static line inside both sides of the—in both sides of the helicopter.
S: So you-you’re saying that you’re putting your feet out of the helicopter on to the pylon?
M: Yeah.
S: And jumping from there?
M: And you no—then you gotta [Narrator puts hands up palms out and waves them forward] make sure that you push yourself OFF of that py—across that pylon. S-so you don’t hit it when you go down.
S: So it makes it more dangerous?
M: Makes it more—scarier [Narrator smiles] I think. I would think, cause you see—cause you get to see the ground the whole time.
S: Was there any—
M: Where I said in the C130—you get to the door and you just jump.
S: Right.
M: So—you don’t see the ground till after you jumped. [Narrator expresses and gestures opens hands in a “see what I mean”] Unless you’re the door person—cause the door person would have to sit and wait.
S: Was there any particular situation where it was dangerous for you?
M: In—in that jump. That that Chopper Blast was [Narrator smiles] kinda dangerous cause uh—they would—they would—they taught—they told ya how—how to go on it. They’d be telling you they’d point to you to jump. [Narrator points finger] Cause they jump across—across the helicopter. [Narrator gesture s to either side one by one]
S: {So from one on one side and one on the other?}
M: {So they’d be like go.} Jump Master—the Jump Master would say go—[Narrator points] Uh when I jumped—after I jumped—and my chute deployed—[Narrator waves hand] there was another guy that jumped—[Narrator puts right arm into the air] on the other side of the helicopter—on the other side of the helicopter b-but he winded [Narrator looks upto his right at upraised arm] up actually floating over top of my helic—my—my—floating over top of my parachute and actually—had to run across it—[Narrator gestures running across parachute] to g-to get off to get away from it. Which is dangerous cause once—cause once a parachute gets on top of another parachute it causes a vacuum—which makes the parachute—not deploy—not deploy where it floats—it just kinda [Narrator claps hands] {folds up.}
S: {Collapses?}
M: Yeah. [Narrator shakes head in confirmation] And had his chute had folded up on top of mine that means my chute would have done the same thing from the weight—[Narrator claps hands and points down] his weight—but he just kinda like came out and just kinda was running across and then jumped off the side of it. [Narrator rolls hands and then points out with right arm]
S: So potentially you could have both {fallen to your death?}
M: {Been in trouble} yeah. [Narrator nods and smirks] Coulda been.
S: About how fast are you falling when you’re on your {parachute?}
M: {Not that—} not that fast.
S: About how high are you?
M: Uh—prob-probably about thirteen, fifteen hundred feet.
S: And that’s for both the parachuting from airplanes and from helicopters?
M: Yeah. [Narrator is pulling out clumps of hair]
S: Did you ever have any nick names when you were in the service?
M: No, I had a nick name at jump school. I was Butterball.
S: BUTTERBALL!?
M: Yeah.
S: Why?
M: Probably because I was kinda a little I don’t know probably— probably cause one of the Black Caps thought I was a little chubby or something probably.
S: Whats a Black Cap?
M: One of the instructors.
S: The instructors are called Black Caps. Why?
M: I don’t know why they call them Black Caps. I think—oh I know [Narrator puts up arm in exclamation and laughs] cause they wear black caps. So I guess that’s it.
S: Alright.
INTERRUPTION11
M:…in the barracks all day long it got kinda boring. [Narrator smiling]
S: You’re saying if it was bad weather you didn’t get to jump?
M: During jump school, yeah. So if there was bad weather out—that means—when I mean bad weather I mean to windy even.
S: To where it might have been to dangerous for you {to jump?}
M: {Right.} Cause you—you’d jump—we-we’d be in Georgia—we were jumpin in Alabama.
S: Ok, and it was because the base was close
M: {The boarder.}
S: {to the} Alabama border?
M: Yep.
S: Ok. Now what about this—looking back on your service did your motivations to serve change or—did you primarily serve your time or did you feel that you served your time so that you could go to school?
M: I think before I got out I-I probably I-I didn’t want to stay in. I was anxious even more so even just wanting get do my time and go back home—and go back to school.
S: So later on in your life—you joined the National Guard was that for the same type of reasons?
M: initially it was because of [Narrator smiles] my son. When he was born I needed extra money at that was the way I made extra money was to be in the Gurads. At that time they used to—used to advertise [Narrator grins] that you could make a car payment by being in the Guards. [Narrator pauses to blow nose] And I was NOT working full time then. [Narrator nods affirmation]
S: When you look back at you time in active duty and in the National Guard—eh how do you feel about your service to the country and your patriotism?
M: I think—I think—I mean initially I said when I got in it was cause of money. But I think it kinda changed over time. I mean as far as—being I think uh—being I-I mean I think I have a sense of patriotism as being stayin’ in. Cause I didn’t—[Narrator shakes head no] I didn’t need to stay in for all that time. I was in for twenty some [Narrator pauses to think] well—the Guards probably for almost probably—over I mean I know over twenty years. So twenty twenty-four years probably. So I mean—I didn’t have to stay in that time—it-it was more of a Patriotism then—I think then a sense of patriotism then money.
S: What do you think your service to the country did for the country?
M: What I think my—personally did?
S: Yeah.
M: Probably not much. Me [Narrator holds up finger] as a person, me as a member of a group of people, know th-that probably made it safer here I think. In a sense being that—people are less likely to mess—knowing if you got—people here th-that are willing put there lives down to save people.
S: So you were a piece of a—of a giant machine—that made a difference then?
M: I think so yeah.

End Notes
1 Narrator also expresses frustration that he can’t remember his sister’s name. He looks to his wife almost to ask for help.

2 Narrator gives his Wife’s Birthday rather then Anniversary.

3 Narrator accidentally calls the 105mm Howitzer the 109. The M101A1 Light Howitzer or the 105 mm Howitzer differs from an artillery field gun or what is more commonly thought of as a cannon. This weapon is designed to be able to fire a shell on an enemy or target at a curved trajectory enabling the operators to engage enemies or targets that are obscured by environmental features.

4 The Narrator uses a tone of voice that signifies his disappointment in not studying more.

5 Narrator holds arms up, elbows on the table, hands open and chops the table as he says “it disciplined me as far as,” then chops his arms down on to the table. Later when saying “know needing to study, focus on something,” he pushes his arms forward.

6 The Narrator seems confused when I say “Atomic Weapons.” He may have presumed that I was ask whether Nuclear Weapons were what he meant when he said “They don’t have those any more.”

7 MOS is an acronym for Military Occupational Specialty

8 The Narrator expresses a range of emotions in the conversation on war atrocities. He ranges from expressions of confusion assuredness and wisdom in the things he is saying.

9 I had not scripted this question and I should not have used the word “murdered” because in my mind it denotes a different kind of destruction of human life. Despite the fact that the words can be used interchangeably I believe that murder has a stronger immoral connotation. I don’t believe that soldiers murder each other on the battlefield but rather kill each other to protect themselves. I also think that the events and conditions at Kent State were far from those of which happen on a battlefield. I believe that the National Guardsmen did murder those victims but had I used the word kill it would have been perceived as more objective and may have not put the Narrator on the defensive.

10 The Narrator seems to be separating himself from the soldiers at Kent State by qualifying them as National Guardsmen who were untrained and not as professional as an active duty soldier like himself.

11 This was the end of the taping but afterward the Narrator started having a conversation with his wife so the recorder as turned back on.

A piece of a Giant Machine
I set out to find veterans who were willing to tell any type of story about there service. My plan was to start in Clatsop County where I grew up. I thought that this class would give me the opportunity to begin a book that I have dreamed about making for North Coast Veterans about their experiences in the service. My plans changed shortly after the class started when my Father was diagnosed with an incurable cancer. He lives in Michigan and I have never had a close relationship with him. It was essential now that I see him and try to get to know him better. As a kid I created a myth about him especially surrounding his military service. That myth became an essential part of creating my own identity. For me understanding who he is, has always been important to understanding who I am.

We both had me in mind as the audience for this oral history. My parents divorced when I was two years old. I saw my Father for about ten weeks or less every year. Most of that time he had to be working so I missed out on the everyday Dad that other kids are fortunate to have. He and I both wanted to spend time together and get to know one another better. After he was diagnosed with cancer there was a new urgency. I was on a quest to find out more about myself by discovering more about my Father and he was interested in giving me that knowledge. I assume that we are both interested in creating a record for his Grandkids to be able to look at his service to the country.

My Father served in the active duty Army before I was born and later served in the Army National Guard and the Air Guard. Soldiers have always been interesting to me as well as the service that soldiers do for their fellow countrymen and leaders. The question that I want to answer is why do these people choose to do it. So I started my questions about what his motivations were for joining the service. He had served in many different groups in the military and I was interested in his experiences in those different units and assignments. I was also interested in finding out how the events of the early 1970’s influenced him in his decision to join the Army. My Grandfather too was a life long soldier and I asked my Father how much he was influenced be him. I couldn’t inspire my Father to get into the detail that I wanted about his Father’s influence but I think that this was one of the biggest reasons he choose to serve.

My Father portrays himself as a naive young soldier hoping to use the military to get an education and to learn some skills that he could use as a cop his dream job. But the military didn’t need him to be a MP or a Military Police. Instead the recruiter lied to him assuring him that he could get the job he wanted if only he chose a different job that he had no interest in. Despite my Fathers inexperience he had a strong sense of justice. My Father was blamed by the family of his friend who went to Vietnam. Despite his denials of the pressure he felt from this family I believe he began the process of volunteering for war because of his inner sense of justice. He felt he was obligated to go to hell because he might have damned his friend. My Fathers sense of justice is also evident in his conflict with the soldier at Fort Sill. When the soldier tried to use excesses to get out of work My Father stood up for truth even when it could have caused trouble for him. My Father’s revelation of his support for the soldiers was yet another example of his sense of justice. He said, “I mean it’s not the soldier that goes—goes over and starts the war it was—it was people who had—people who head countries that start the war its not the soldiers that did that.” This disagreement with the treatment that soldiers received from the Radical Left is a perfect example.

My Father’s notion of what the interview would be probably started with some of the initial things I had asked him, about the units he was in and dates that he served. My Father made a comment that we were jumping around a lot in the Narrative. He made the assumption that I was interested in hearing a story from the beginning to the end. But he gave and I took control of the interview, pushing him to the topics I saw most important. As I said I was looking for more of his thoughts and inspirations for serving and not a linear history of his service. But the whole narrative turned out to reveal exactly what I wanted to know. I wished that my Father would have reflected more, given more detail in the stories he was telling. They seemed more like answers to my questions rather then him opening up and revealing his story prompted by my questions. This was my fault because of the way I set the pace of the interview by running through a check list style battery of questions about his birth and family. I learned a lot from my experience interviewing him and I improved my questioning tactics as we progressed through the interview. Next time I interview a Narrator I am going to make the situation more candid. Although I had expected something different, I am glad for what I did get because it was a better understanding of his past and his personality.

Part of that personality is my Father’s difficulty speaking. He has been described as speaking quickly, softly and with a stutter. It can be almost impossible to understand him sometimes especially when you are not face to face. This posed a considerable challenge for transcribing the interview and I did my best to transcribe verbatim. It seemed that he had a hard time starting throughout the interview because he was assembling his thoughts. Not an uncommon problem for anyone. He has a feeling for what he is going to say before he has assembled it in his mind. He also is an incredible speaker with his hands. This trait adds a second dimension to his speaking and it expresses his passion for the story he is telling. In the interest of communicating as much as possible in the transcript I noted the majority of his gestures and tried to translate his expressions. All of these alternate forms of communication are examples of the importance of the video recording and the limitations of the transcript as a source.

The patterns in My Fathers Narration can easily be found in his false starts. It is part of who he is, he does it in all of his speech and not just while he is speaking in front of the camera. He used the phrase “I mean” a lot and this could be because he is interested in the audience understanding his perspective but it could also be because of his difficulty in communicating. Overall I didn’t see any contradiction in his Narrative but I did find that in some of his answers it seemed he didn’t know much about the questions. He seemed unknowledgeable in particular about Kent State, My Lai, and the Pentagon Papers. But he answered the questions of how they influenced him perfectly; he didn’t know much about them so they made little impact. He did seem to become a little defensive about these questions though. This may be because he knows that we have ideological differences on some issues and he obviously didn’t know as much about Kent State as he admitted. He tried to distance himself from the soldiers in Ohio despite the fact that he was never accused of being involved. He seemed to know less about My Lai but wanted to defend soldiers and make sure that it was clear that war is hell and that all sides in war commit and experience savagery.

In my research before the interview I found general information about the weapons and units he served in. When searching for books and articles about oral history and soldiers I was only able to find a few. Those articles that I did find dealt particularly with Oral History from Vietnam Vets in the classroom. The common concern that I found in the articles was the reliability of the Narrator. In a nation that has a powerful media machine, so much of the narrative of the war has been written by News Casts, Hollywood Directors, and the scars of the antiwar movement. Historians have concern for veterans who are concocting a truth for themselves that is mixed with everything that has happened after they got home. The soldier’s perspectives on their experiences are being jaded by the national narrative. While I do believe that he tried to act a little like a tough guy when describing some of the weapons and jumps he made I don’t sense that he over embellished. His narrative is very matter of fact and is not colored with many opinions of what happened on the national scene.

Although I was at first disappointed with the narrative my Father made I later realized that I learned a lot about his perspective. He joined the service not because he was going to fight for freedom wherever there was trouble but because of real reasons, pragmatic reasons. The myths of my childhood were dispelled and a new character was developed. My Father’s new character is one that I can draw inspiration from more then the one that I created as a kid. In the end I found that the story that my Father told was just the tip of who my Father is. My Father served for nearly all of his adult life but he didn’t do it for himself. Now I need to find the questions I need to discover the rest of him.